Thomas over Stockton on Original Dream Team

Posted by James Seaman on August 08, 2008

‘Over Stockton?!?’ (NBAE/Getty Images)

I want to start a fight. Perhaps the sweltering heat and oppressive humidity of New Orleans in August has finally caused me to snap. I want to start some drama—some mess—as my students call it, and I’m going to do it over this blog. Now, before I sound like one of those ridiculous conservative talk radio hosts who blurts out things they can’t possibly believe for the sole purpose of starting ideological conflict, let me say that I believe what I’m about to write. I will back it up with evidence. Here goes.

Watching the U.S.-Australia game on television got me thinking about the original Dream Team and how Shaq belonged there over Christian Laettner. You know who else belonged? Isiah Thomas. Over John Stockton.

I love John Stockton. He ranks as my second favorite player of all time, only a half step behind Karl Malone. He deserves the statue, the street named in his honor, and much more than Jazz fans can ever appreciate. On the other hand, I despise Isiah Thomas. I cringe every time he says something smug on camera. He drove the New York Knicks straight into the ground. But if we’re talking about picking a point guard to lead a team, consider that during his career Isiah Thomas defeated Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird in the playoffs. Thomas literally willed the Detroit Pistons to two championships. We remember Detroit as the Bad Boys, a team of rugby players, bouncers, and ultimate fighters. Thomas—the smallest hooligan in the crew—proved himself the baddest boy of all. The Pistons had other talented players like Joe Dumars and an aging Mark Aguirre, as well as the bruisers mentioned previously. But Thomas could put his teammates on his back and carry them all the way to the Promised Land when called to, just like Magic, Bird, and Jordan did at various points in their careers.

Some might argue that Thomas’ character, or lack thereof, precluded him from membership on the Dream Team. Well, Charles Barkley once hurled a man through a plate glass window. Karl Malone used to throw elbows as if they were going out of style. Larry Bird had a boxing match with Dr. J in the 3rd quarter of a regular season game. Bird also fought Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman in the same sequence of a playoff contest, throwing the basketball at Laimbeer for good measure. Michael Jordan has a gambling addiction. He also slugged teammates in practice, according to author Sam Smith. Scottie Pippen refused to play the final seconds of a post-season game because Phil Jackson called for Toni Kukoc to take the last shot (granted, this occurred two years after the original Dream Team won the gold, but it still speaks volumes about Pippen’s character). Christian Laettner stomped on Aminu Timberlake’s chest during the same Elite 8 game in which he hit his famous turnaround buzzer-beater against Kentucky. Chris Mullin blow dried his hair into a blonde fro-mullet early in his career before later sporting a hideous flattop. Trust me, that is offensive. And even our beloved John Stockton, referred to as dirty by some, would certainly do anything to win, just like rest of these greats. So the character issue doesn’t fly. The Dream Team was supposed to be about the best players in the game, not which men would make the best political candidates.

Besides, if you wanted to talk about character, you’d have to consider heart a huge part of that. To those who would argue that Thomas had no heart, please search through the archives for his performance in the 1988 NBA Finals. In the 3rd quarter of Game Six, Thomas severely sprained his ankle, yet still returned to floor less than a minute later and hobbled his way to 25 points in the game’s penultimate stanza. Thomas finished Game Six with 43 points, eight assists and six steals.

Isiah Thomas’ best days had passed him by in 1992, so one might argue that he didn’t belong on the Dream Team at that point in his career. Consider, however, that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird joined the team even though both men had already played their last NBA game. So this ultimately comes down to an argument over which man was a better point guard. If you want to argue numbers, you’ll take Stockton. The man set career records for assists and steals so high into the stratosphere that only an astronaut could catch him. As Jazz fans, however, we know better than anyone that basketball is a team sport measured in more than statistics. And while John Stockton was one of the greatest team players of his time, Isiah Thomas took his team to a place that only half of the 1992 Olympic squad’s dozen members ever reached in their illustrious careers—the hallowed status of NBA Champion.

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Chizat on August 08, 2008 said:

Don’t ever compare Isiah Thomas to Magic and Bird. Isiah isn’t in the same league as those two. If they wanted to be on this year’s Olympic team, the could be.

Isiah is a moron.

Jared Conger on August 08, 2008 said:

Wow, I can’t believe you just went there.

I’ve always greatly dislike isaih thomas and his play. I don’t even take the time to spell his name right.

In a grudge match: Stockton beats Thomas so badly they just place Thomas in the WNBA where he and his whiney antics have always belonged.

J R Stewart on August 08, 2008 said:

The Dream Team had oodles of offense, it needed and go the two best distributors the game has ever seen, John and Magic. What did you need a shoot first point guard for? Besides he was and still is a jerk.

Jazzaholic

justalars on August 08, 2008 said:

Thats like saying Stephon Marbury should be on this years olympic team instead of D Will (Not Smart)

James on August 08, 2008 said:

Fellas, I dislike Isiah Thomas as much as the next Jazz fan, but you have to consider what the guy did on the court. He was truly one of the great players of his generation. Consider that in the 14 seasons from 1980-1993, only five different teams won NBA titles–the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Sixers, and Bulls. The Sixers are the only one of the five without multiple titles in that span, and Dr. J and Moses Malone also couldn’t successfully lobby for a senior citizen division in the ‘92 Olympics. The other four teams have at least one representative each on the original Dream Team (two for the Bulls), except Detroit. Just because we hated those Pistons teams doesn’t mean we can pretend they weren’t good. They won 3 straight Eastern Conference titles, and Isiah was clearly their best player, their heart and soul.

Justalars, saying Isiah belonged on the Dream Team is nothing like lobbying for Stephon Marbury. Marbury has taken only four teams to the playoffs in twelve years. Thomas won two titles. I really don’t like Isiah but I respect him. Marbury is a headcase and a spoiled brat.

jazzaddict on August 09, 2008 said:

Isiah did win titles but like you said earlier in the blog he had a great team too. if Stockton played for the pistons instead of Isiah, they would have done better and won that 3-peat! Isiah would’ve had to have the ball all the time and keep the attention on him, just like when he over acted the whole ankle injury. the last thing you want on the dream team is a point guard that shoots first and passes rarely. obviously i don’t like Isiah but i do respect his ability just not as much as Stockton’s.

Linda McFarland on August 09, 2008 said:

Yes, I believe Isiah is a good player and possibly could be compared to Stockton. The problem is that this is the Olympics and those players are representing ME and the rest of the USA. Let me see, is it really hard to decide if I want to be remembered for someone like Isiah or John? Really a hard question when you follow their past. Yes, yes, yes, I know it is about winning! But not ALL about winning. Do I want other countries going away talking about that crummy, cheating, nasty, self centered players who won, or the team playing, courteous, hard working players who gave their best but came up a little behind? Ya, I know you are saying “the ones who won” but I still want to be remembered by the “better” team. Actually, I want to be remembered as the team playing courteous, hard working players who came away with the gold!!

John M and Kathy M on August 09, 2008 said:

Forget the analytical stuff. John was a career long Jazzman and for no other reason than that I support his Olympic selection. What ya dissin our John for? You could start W.W. III with that kinda talk!!

justalars on August 09, 2008 said:

Oh my Bad! Isiah waited till after he retired and became a coach to become a head case. That makes it all better!

Phil on August 10, 2008 said:

I think the story goes that they did want Isaiah on the team, but Jordan said that it was either him or Thomas. This was because Thomas gave MJ the shaft in the fourth quarter of the All-Star game the year before. So James, you’re right, Thomas was probably the better individual player at the time, but Stockton was really what the team needed – someone who would make the others around him better.

Does anyone else remember the next time the Pistons played the Jazz after the Olympics, and Malone hit Thomas across the face for trying to show up Stockon? Classic.

Garrett on August 20, 2008 said:

Isiah over John Stockton? Thats the worst thing i’ve ever heard in my life. Isiah was a great point guard, yet Micheal Jordan was young when the Pistons beat them in the playoffs, While the pistons where already at the best of there game. If the Jazz were at there peak in that era… They would have on at least three championships. The Pistons would have been sweept by the Jazz in any given series.

Bdub on November 18, 2008 said:

I VERY MUCH dislike Isiah Thomas…….even more than the Lakers! If I’m the Dream Team, I take Stockton ANY day of the week! He passes first. TEAM ball. That’s what the Olympics is ALL about.
If I’m in the NBA Finals…..I can’t believe I’m about to say this……I don’t WANT Thomas, but I do NEED him. The ONLY problem I had with Stockon (and yes, I’m a DIE HARD JAZZ FAN) was the fact that he didn’t shoot enough. All Jazz fans KNOW that Stock could have scored 20+ every night. In the regular season, that’s no big deal…..I didn’t complain too much. HOWEVER, in the post-season, Stockton needed to score the ball more. I’m convinced we still take both FInals’ games to game 7 if Stockton is more agressive in the first 3.5 quarters of every game, instead of waiting til the last 2 minutes of each game.

James, I’ll have to disagree that Thomas deserved to be chosen over Stockton for the Olympics. Maybe in the Playoffs, but NOT the Olympics. I’d end up going with Stockton, personally, in any situation because I cannot stand Thomas’ attitude. That’s why I consult in real estate instead of the NBA!

JazzyJeff on February 27, 2009 said:

Hey James maybe Isiah should try coaching I bet he would be way better than John Stockton. Seriously, I think to even compare Isiah to John Stockton is absurd. I bet John could do everything and anything better than him. Except suck!

Cendy on March 12, 2009 said:

Did it matter to the selection committee that Isiah had already been selected for the Olympics?

Mikhail on April 15, 2009 said:

OK, here is the real deal. First, remember that I am a fan of the game, not just of the players, and I say this based on facts, so hear what I have to say about this Isaiah versus stockton thing.

Fact: Isiah was already to be selected over Stockton, but Jordan intervened because of his ongoing feud with Isiah since his rookie game (if you dont know about this, google it).So he was then selected for Dream Team II but declined due to the ruptured achilles tendon.

Fact: Isiah did for his TEAM what Stockton could not do for his TEAM. The pistons TEAM were a better TEAM than the Jazz.

Fact: Arguably, the three greatest teams in the history of the NBA was magic, lakers, Jordan’s Bulls, and Bird’s celtics. Isiah was the undisputed leader of his team, which rolled over Magic’s team, Jordan’s team, and Bird’s team, while securing the teams place in history. Stocktons’s team was never able to beat any of these great teams for the championship.

Fact: Although John did have more assists than Isiah, Isiah was better, statistically, in every other catagory. Look it up. The only point guard comparable to Isiah, statistically was Magic.

Fact: Yes, its true. Everyone knows Stockton plays dirty to get the job done when he needs to, and this is admirable when the game is on the line, but Isiah is dirtier.

Fact/Oppinion: Isiah is one of the greatest on-court showmen in the history of basketball. In fact, at that time, when someone mentioned “NBA showman”, you immediately thought either Magic or Isiah. Lets face it, John is not in that realm. The Dream Team was selected to put on the greatest “show” of dominance in the history of basketball. While both men would have added greatly to the shear dominance of the team, the people of the world wanted to see the the “eye candy” that is what Isiah does.

Oppinion: Isiah is a better all around player than Stockton. isiah versus stockton one-on-one, isiah gets the W (see the pistons vs Jazz game after the olypic commitee announcement that Isiah was out and stockton was in, in which Isiah torched stockton for 43 points and all-around jaw dropping performance just to make a statement).

I know you guys love Stockton, and rightly so. The man was an assist machine. His name is synonymous with the word assist. He could be depended upon to make the right pass in EVERY situation, no doubt. No player has ever made (and may never make) as many passes as Stockton did in his career. However, although being a passer to all of these legendary players is a great complimentary position, its not enough alone to merit the selection to the Dream team. Otherwise, Dminique Wilkins would have been selected because he was the best Dunker at that time. Isiah, on the other hand had the whole package, except that he and Jordan were bitter enemies at that time.

Ryan on July 10, 2009 said:

I know I’m jumping in late to old conversation, but thought I would post my 2 cents. A good article to use in reference for this argument was done by ESPN who ranked the all time best point guards in the league based on the votes of 13 NBA “Experts”. Isiah and Stockton were extremely close in vote ranking. Isiah racked up 84 vote points as the 3rd best, with Stockton earning 81 as 4th best. Isiah’s leadership and ability to lead his team to two championships helped him get the 3 extra points. When looking at the PER (Player Efficiency Rating) Stockton ranks 3rd (behind Magic and Oscar) and Isiah Thomas ranks 9th.

My own opinion now. If you need to fill a leadership spot and a point guard spot, I would take Isaiah, but if I needed to fill just a point guard, I would take Stockton (the more efficient, (in other words better statistics). In the case of the Dream Team, when you already have the three best leaders the league has ever seen (Jordan, Magic, and Bird), and you need someone to fill the position of backup point guard, I wouldn’t take the less efficient/better leader point guard. You go for who has the best stats.

My vote is that Stockton deserved to be on that dream team more than Isaiah, even though Isaiah was their first choice.

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