JayRay on January 12, 2009 said:

i love this more than i love banana cream pie.

Annie Whittaker on January 12, 2009 said:

Nice to see an objective examination of the statistics–NOT.
But, Andy since I would rather stick a fork in my eye than make a detailed analysis of the stats, I’m wondering…is there a direct correlation (I actually know a statistics related term) between the declining minutes of play, and the declining numbers in the other stat categories?
I mean the less time you are in the game, the less opportunity you have to shoot, and do everything else right?

I’m actually not defending the big guy now, even though a very nasty blogger once called me the Jarron Collins of blogging–(I’m thinking he didn’t mean it as a compliment). I’m just saying that for the time that he’s out there, and for the salary that he’s paid, he’s not exactly a liability for the Jazz, is he? He’s kind of like one of the very specialized tools that I only use once a year at work, that I bought at a great price from someone else. I hardly ever need it, but when I do, it’s invaluable, and I’m glad I got it for such a bargain. Am I totally wrong here? Objectively speaking, of course?

Andy Larsen on January 12, 2009 said:

Oh Annie. I get one or two players to have some fun with the statistical exploration series, and you make fun of my lack of objectivity.

Yeah, there’s a correlation between declining numbers and declining playing time, of course, and usually things like Points per 40 minutes stats try to measure those. By those measures, Collins hasn’t really been truly declining, he’s oscillated between being rookie season bad and worse than that.

The reason his minutes have been decreasing is because of two factors: potential and competition. The Jazz would obviously rather play Memo or Kosta than Collins at this point, and it hurts his playing time. That one’s obvious. The more subtle one is potential. As a rookie, Jarron Collins’ line isn’t half-bad. I’m sure the Jazz played him more in hopes that he would get better, unfortunately, he hasn’t. That’s no real fault to either the Jazz or Collins: the Jazz didn’t know he couldn’t get better, and Collins is saddled with his lack of innate athleticism, something he can’t really improve on.

This year, I don’t think he’s been a real liability, he hasn’t cost us any games or anything. Last season? Absolutely. Like Hollinger points out, he’s either the worst or second to his brother in a lot of categories, and then allows opponents above average offense. Honestly, when Collins is on the floor, its a lot like playing 4 on 5 because he’s offensively worthless. At 10 minutes a game last year in 70 games, that’s enough to cost your team some close games. He’s worth about a negative 6 per game in points, if he played 48 minutes.

By the way, that’s about where Fesenko is as well, but the Jazz could have some hope for Fesenko down the road, while Collins just can’t improve at this point in his career. We should have either played Fesenko more last season, made a trade for a better backup C, or given the minutes to a combination of Millsap and Andrei.

Dallin T on January 12, 2009 said:

Collins is a nice guy who doesn’t cause any problems, which is a rarity these days, and is probably the main reason we still have him. I love stats, but they need to be taken at face value. This year, most of Jarron’s minutes have come during garbage time when both teams just want the game to end and absolutely nothing happens. (See our recent win over Detroit.)
Of course, Collins does appear to be quit out-of-shape this year and a lot worse than I remember him. However, his experience may still prove valuable in the playoffs when anything can happen. I used to really hate Fesenko and I thought Harpring should retire until I saw them get some real minutes. You never know what could happen.
By the way, can someone explain to me what PER is? I missed the last two seasons and I’m having a hard time catching up with new terminology.

Amir on January 12, 2009 said:

This is a stupid story. Does anybody understand Jarron Collins role? The guy averages 3 minutes per game sometimes no minutes dnp. I agree he is not the guy who will score a lot he is lazy a lot but his role is to rebound and pass, also pick up some fouls on shaq and other big men – that’s his role we don’t need from you Andy past 10 years stats nobody care’s about that when boozer gets back Collins won’t get any minutes anyway. That rookie from Ohio, Koufos he is doing an outstanding job in his first year and he is not afraid to take a shot. Andy I started watching the NBA 12 years ago in 1997 when the Bulls played the Pacers in the semi finals and then the Jazz in finals, I understand the game and players very well – you can’t fool me with Collins stats. One more thing, Collins is a reserve he is one of 14 players on the team. I wouldn’t ask from him a lot if I am you Andy. Bye all – nice 4 game home win for Jazz. Coach Sloan doing an excellent job and he’s playing only 8 guys in the rotation. Keep up the good job Utah – you have best game I ever saw.

Andy Larsen on January 12, 2009 said:

Yeah, I understand his role. I’m not being terribly rude to him, I’m just laying out some interesting things about him as a player. In order to enjoy some measure of objectivity, I have to say it how it is, and Collins isn’t very good. His role doesn’t call upon him to do more than that, and I’m fine with how he is currently played.

I too, started watching basketball at the same time you did. I have some knowledge of what’s going on out there. I’m not honestly asking anything from him, I’m only seeking to explore his strengths and weaknesses as a player – much like I have with Almond, Boozer, and Millsap so far.

Dallin: PER stands for Player Efficiency rating, invented by John Hollinger. Basically, he takes everything into account regarding a player that can be found statistically on the offensive side and puts that into a single number. 15 is set to league average. The best players are around the 25-30 level. Jarron Collins is at about the 8-11 level. For the current leaderboard, check out: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

Boondock Saint on January 13, 2009 said:

Thanks for this series Andy. I’m enjoying it. Seems like you have gotten a little crap for this one on Jarron but I’m with JayRay, it put a smile on my face and made me shake my head in agreement.

Annie you aren’t wrong and, in fact, have a great point. One, I think, that Andy is agreeing with. He’s emphaising Collins strength as someone who takes a charge (or makes it look like he does) but doesn’t do much else. So when we need someone, like Amir says, to pick up fouls on the big men, Collins is our guy. If you need defense other than a charge, an offensive threat, a rebounder, a shot blocker well then Collins is more a detriment than a help. Which is what I think Andy pointed out in a humorous way that put a smile on this Jazz fan’s face.

JayRay on January 13, 2009 said:

and the collins supporters show up in full force!

just don’t ride in a golf cart with the guy and you’ll all be fine.

Linda McFarland on January 13, 2009 said:

Annie and Amir……Thank you for your blog which about says it all. I guess “being terribly rude” means something different nowdays than it did awhile back! If he is on the team than the coaches have a reason to have him there.

justalars on January 13, 2009 said:

If he’s in the NBA he can at least play a little bit, none of us are in the NBA are we?

Andy Larsen on January 13, 2009 said:

Linda: The coaches don’t necessarily have a reason to keep him here at this point in time. It could be that he is on the team simply because his contract, signed 4 years ago, doesn’t allow the Jazz to cut him penalty-free.

Justin: Cool last name. No, we’re not in the NBA. But should that mean we can’t analyze the players that are in the NBA against each other? For instance, neither of us have the capability to be President of the US. Does that mean we can’t disagree with his decisions?

One other point. Just because he’s in the NBA doesn’t mean he’s necessarily better than the players outside of the NBA. A classic example is Mikki Moore. Mikki’s not a terrifically talented player, but he was in the NBDL when the Jazz called him up. Since then, he’s been in the NBA to stay, got a fat contract, and plays big minutes for the Kings. Now, yes, the Kings are bad. But Mikki’s pretty clearly a better player than Collins. That’s not unfair, that’s not “being terribly rude”, it’s just the way it is in the NBA.

Linda McFarland on January 14, 2009 said:

Sorry Andy, but I feel like your choice of words were being rude. I understand that they are in the NBA and are making great money but there are nicer and more mature names to use when coomparing. I coulld disagree with things the President says but I can use a better choice of words to use when I disagree. Could be just a generation gap in our choice of words..

Brian McCann on January 14, 2009 said:

Andy- This post was funny and not necesarily rude in my eyes. Our blog needs a little flair every once in a while. Everyone has their opinions, and we don’t always have to be nice. Good take-you brought up a lot of funny points.

Linda McFarland on January 14, 2009 said:

It is important that we all have our “flair” once in awhile I just think that we are getting down to so few players with such crazy things going on that each one needs to be built up as much as possible. Everyone on that team tonight looked and played like they didn’t have a friend in the world. There wasn’t a one that looked like an NBA player so I don’t know that we can pick out just one and call him pathetic. I could have cried while I watched that game!!!!!!

Brian McCann on January 15, 2009 said:

I agree Linda- You might not want to read my next blog, however. I viewed them more last night as grown men that acted like they didn’t care. If they continually want to reference their choices as “business decisions”, and refer to basketball as a “business”, then they better get use to some criticism. For the rest of us in the world of “business”, when you fail to preform, you might really feel like you don’t have a friend in the world, but hey, that’s just business:)

JayRay on January 15, 2009 said:

brian,

i like the lead in to the next blog. will it rock my socks off?

Brian McCann on January 15, 2009 said:

JayRay-Oh yeah:) It’s kind of an emotional outburst.

Linda McFarland on January 15, 2009 said:

You know what Andy? I really think that we may be saying a lot of the same things only the words you use and the words I would use are a big distance apart. We are just different people and that is fine. Pretty dull place when we all think alike. I still stand pretty hard on the idea that we need to build up a persons ego. Now, I also agree that after the game the other night there isn’t much ego to build up. I was sooooo unhappy with the lack of play from 2/3 of the team that it was frustrating. I wouldn’t use the word “useless” for any of them but DWil looked so frustrated in trying to get anyone to play as tho they wanted to win. Where does the fight go from one night to another??? I am very, very anxious to get Milsap back who really seems to play with some conviction. Anyone can have a bad night any given time (I see the Lakers lost again!!) but to lose that far to the supposedly worst team in the league? I think their new coach and the new Russian player are making a difference. They are convinced that they can win and I think everyone better watch out for Oklahoma.

Bob Saget on January 16, 2009 said:

Yo.

Collins is a way nice dude. I saw him at Megaplex once getting a free movie and Popcorn on Larry’s Dime. He put some popcorn in his mouth and was stuffing his face when I said in a low tone…. “No Wonder we can’t win Championships in Utah, The players just eat what ever they want and do what they want”.

He pretty much just smiled at me and nodded while some popcorn fell out of his mouth. He got the joke or was being plesant.

I am very suprised the dude has not been traded. I thought it was a typo on the roster because Collins was still on our team when I looked at the roster. Wow… Going back to the Stockton and Malone Era baby.

Let’s see: Collins, Harpring, Kirilenko all part of the Stock & Malone Era.

Sorry a little A.D.D moment here.

I was just reflecting on how they could have won it all in the short season in 1999 because well.. Malone , Horny and Stock were all getting older and they only had to play half the season. Then the SPURS curse started. “DUNCAN!!!!!” Probably the most underated player in the NBA. I can’t stand him. “DUNCAN!!!!!”

Here is my point. The Jazz could have a quality Championship team but they always make the worst choices. Like Malone Going to the Lakers and only getting a Million when he could have got a Kick ass Center his last 3 years if he opted for that.

Here is a team NOW that we could have had if we did not make piss poor choices. Look at it and tell me that you would not rather see this line up every night.

PG:: Chris Paul (sorry it is true, I like Dwill but he is better and we should have taken him).

SG: Raja Bell (why did we not keep this guy? he had more heart than any player I had seen in years). Kicking balls into the crowd. Hitting 3’s, hustle, hustle, hustle.

SF: Richard Jefferson (Yes we could have got this guy).

PF: Kevin Garnett (Now, let’s say we could not have got this guy when he was a free agent. Although the money would have been freed up to get him. Then we will stick with Paul Millsap as he is going to get better and better. Boozer, since we got him my slogan has been “you booze, you loze”. Let’s lose this guy. He is holding up all our money and does nothing for our team but gets hurt. Further I don’t really think he likes it here.

C: Mehmet Okur (The guy is the best center we ever got.). Although I could go for Andris Biedrins. I think he should be the next Center we go after if Okur leaves.

My back up bench would be:

PG: Mo Williams (we should have kept him, I was sad like Raja to see him go).

SG: Stay with our boy Ronnie Brewer at back up

SF: Corry Magette, remember the rumors? We could have picked this guy up. But, to you non-believers I will then recommend that we could have picked up Peja Stojakovic before he went to the Hornets or even Hedo Turkoglu. But if you still don’t believe me then we will just stay with Kyle Korver missing three after three off the bench.

PF: While I am glad we don’t have Michale Ruffin as our back up anymore, I would recommend we pick up a free agent who can sit the bench. Our powerfowards are where we struggle. Although if we had Kevin Garnett when he was leaving Minnisota we could have Millsap as backup. If you don’t think we could have Garnet and had to have Millsap start then I would recommend we went hard after Zach Randolph and had Millsap on the bench.

C: Im liking the Okur, Andris Biedrins. as our centers but I can go with one if these two and Chris Kaman. Or if we could not pull it off we stick with our new rookie Koufos

This is a champion ship team. Even if we swap Chris Paul for our beloved D-Will that is a solid team. Now look at our current team and ask your self. Do we really stand a chance?

Looks like we are gonna be an 8th seat team unless boozer some how magically gets healthy and starts putting up numbers again.

Andy Larsen on January 16, 2009 said:

Unfortunately, sir, the NBA has a salary cap. Here’s what all the players you mentioned are making this season.

CP3: 13.7 M
Bell: 5 M
Jefferson: 13.2 M
Garnett 24.7 M
Memo: 8.5 M

Mo: 8.3 M
Brewer: 1.8 M
Peja: 13 M
Millsap: .7 M
Biedrins: 9 M
Maggette: 8.3 M
Turkoglu: 6.8 M
Randolph: 14.6 M
Kaman: 9.5 M

For 137.5 Million dollars for your 15 man NBA roster. The salary cap is below 60 M. So, yeah, it’s a championship team, if we don’t play by the rules.

Annie Whittaker on January 17, 2009 said:

Subway Sub of the Game Baby!!!!! 1-16-09 vs. Memphis Grizzlies

Linda McFarland on January 17, 2009 said:

My husband really wanted him in to play rough against Dirk tonight. He says he would remind him that he had all his fouls and send him to bump him around a little under the basket! He’s one player who would do it.

kazak on January 18, 2009 said:

I’m sure Mo Williams, Corey Maggette, Hedo Turkoglu, and Chris Kaman would love to come off the bench. I think running an NBA team is a bit more complicated than that, Bob.